View Full Version : Screw the Social Rules, let's talk Politics and Religion

Beached Male
07-17-2009, 03:27 PM
Not sure if this thread will get any life, but I can tell you that after nearly 3 total years in foreign lands, my political outlook has changed significantly. I used to be Die-Hard Republican. I voted party line, didn't matter that candidates presented good arguments.

Over time I changed to more of a "vote for the best candidate" person, yet I still found myself voting the party line whenever I didn't know much about the two choices I had.

Recently, I changed much more drastically, and perhaps it has been all the reading I have been doing especially, but I turned my back on the Republican Party and joined the Constitution Party. I simply cannot support the two-party system in the U.S. any more. There are too many buffoons in both parties, both are morally bankrupt, and both of the major parties are spending the country into insolvency.

I'm not the only one feeling this way. Apparently, in June 2009 there was a 1% shift of the nation away from both major parties to a different status. In many cases, they've joined a party separate from the big two, and one biased report I read stated that the Constitution Party was the largest and fastest growing of the parties outside the big two. That's not why I joined the CP though, not to latch on a fad, but it was the party platform. When I read it, I agreed with every single one of their points. Simply put, the CP wants to get back to Constitutional practice.

What say you? Do you believe in Republicanism and the Prophet Limbaugh? Are you Democrat to the end, even if it really means "the end?" Sorry, I just had to jab a bit.

I don't want to overlook our fellow Fixxtures outside the U.S. either. For example, there's much debate now about individual national sovereignty in Europe vs. collective Euro-Union practice. Even PM Brown has to cow to former PM Blair because Blair may become the first "President" of the European Union. Some see the presidency as further eroding sovereignty in Europe. Canadians also have it rough as the perceived 51st state, so what are your gripes with overbearing U.S. interference in your affairs (or the U.K.)?

Looking forward to fiery discussion in here, if you're willing.
Oh, we haven't even started on religion yet, should save that for a bit.

Cary C-Troll
07-17-2009, 10:37 PM
This is exactly what I was looking for- refer to the pm just sent.

It's dangerous- aligning ourselves with a political party w/o researching and understanding its agenda. Presently, that agenda is to undermine our Constitution- the very document our government swears to uphold. It is happening under the guise that the Feds are stepping in to 'protect' us. All this 'protection' gives the Feds more power and control and less say-so to the individual citizens and state governments. This is not what our Founding Fathers intended.

It's very calculated. The rate that this is happening should churn our stomachs. We're giving that power to the Feds with each bill passed and each new precedent set by the Supreme Court.

Saw this coming...low & behold. The President ultimately has the say-so on appointments to the Supreme Court. These are life-time positions. For this very reason we cannot afford to think in terms of "no big deal...if this President doesn't work out, he'll be out of office in 4 yrs." Consider his appointments to the Supreme Court and the precedents set with each case decided by those appointees. And if that doesn't make you think...

How easy was it this time around for this President to slip in under this platform of "Change"? I've gone on about this before, but we subscribed to it without any details or outline, no specifics, only pomp&circumstantial ambiguity. What can we do once our leader is chosen for change, and the change he brings is a cabinet that looks remarkably like a cabinet from another (Clinton) era? Those were not the glory days of Camelot- so save it- I won't hear it.

And talk about the economy. Bad decision after bad decision- the stimulus bill drafted by the representative of a state with the highest unemployment & taxes??? Sending our economy spiralling deeper into a cycle of credit, failure to repay, more Government subsidy, more Government debt, higher taxes, less spending, thus more credit. It's absurd and fiscally irresponsible.

Keep reading and following what is happening in Congress, the Senate and the Supreme Court. Keep digging and never 100% make up your mind. As the laws and circumstances change, we have to keep reconsidering where we stand on issues. Principles and moral absolutes. There is your solid ground. All else is shifting sands.

OK- getting wound up- so tired- will be back. I'm not done. You've been warned.

07-18-2009, 01:54 PM
I hate the two-party system. Not a member of any. I often vote Green Party, but friends keep telling me that the two-party system isn't going away anytime soon, and I'm just wasting my vote voting for them, so I've been convinced to vote for one of the big two on more than one occasion.

I joke with my boyfriend that Election Day is the day we go cancel each other's votes...he's conservative (but does have some liberal viewpoints) and I'm liberal (but do have some conservative viewpoints). I've actually become far more conservative with age; I used to be an unofficial communist, and am now just quite liberal :p I currently spend time each day sending off a raft of animal rights and other petitions.

My religion, in a couple sentences, is that God is the divine process that makes everything happen, and permeates everything, even what most people would see as inanimate. Therefore, there is nothing that isn't sacred, and worship must be constant.

I'm dealt with a bunch of people in my life lately who think that, because I'm not their religion, that I must not believe in God, am not religious, etc. etc. I wish I could convince them that I'm very much at peace in my beliefs...I would think it would show. But this particular religion is frustratingly blind to there being more than one path to God (um, there should be as many paths as there are beings). But I might as well go beat my head on the wall on that one.

07-20-2009, 11:32 AM
I keep telling Ira if things really go down the toilet, we're moving to Sweden to be ex-pats. I could probably adjust to hearing ABBA some... LOL!

Ira's a liberal Democrat, and I'm a "free agent" (have voted 3rd party off n' on). Yes, we are NPR, BBC, Daily Show and Stephen Colbert Report fans.

Anyway, seems Sweden's got a decent handle on job benefits and health care. So what if their taxes are high--they're going to get high here, too!

Plus, their banks aren't failing like here, as they learned their hard lessons back in the early 90's about questionable loan practices and righted that.

And I can't take much sun and hate to be hot/humid--fair skin and all. I'd definitely be skipping their sauna/beat with a stick/jump in the snow aspect.

Originally, thought maybe Norway, since my family originated from there--but since Ira and I just went to the Holocaust Museum, we saw that they weren't too nice to the Jews (Ira's Jewish and I'm in process of converting).

Israel would also be an option, but the strife and perpetual upheaval surrounding there is pretty dang scary (and it's hotter).


07-20-2009, 11:33 AM
Don't belong to any political group, and haven't voted since 1984. Have always loved history though, and over the years have compiled a list of who I consider to be our best presidents.

I do pray for all people in government, and respect civil authority.

I'm a New Testament Christian(see my Homepage). I doubt if any of you have met anyone who is more conservative-to-the-extreme. But don't let that stop you from seeking me out, I'm definitely a fun-loving type and Shoeman's inherent silliness just might make you crack a smile....


Beached Male
07-20-2009, 04:46 PM
Carrie - philosophically, would God be self-revealing to everyone or wouldn't that make everyone eventually be aware of Him so everyone would feel forced to believe? From that vantage point, seems robotic and unlike the God I read about in the Bible. I don't ever try to say "I think this" or "I think that" when it comes to faith and religious beliefs, rather -- I look to the Bible for Truth. Man tends to seek something other than God because what God inspired in the Bible tends to cut people, like a sword or surgeon's knife. Many people are uncomfortable reading the Bible and learning that God doesn't like certain things we do in our lives (sin), but at the same time God didn't make life all about the "don't do's" he does provide an answer. God shows His love in the Bible and how he is a Father to us and will always take us in, we simply need to have faith and ask him for that relationship. (we should discuss/debate further over time)

MsSmith - Sweden? Think about this - Swedish farmers immigrated to North Dakota, and they helped set up what is one of the most solvent and fiscally sound banks in the country - the Bank of North Dakota. The BND is the only state-owned bank in the U.S., and if you research what they've done, their methods would be wise to use in other states. Why move to Sweden when you can enjoy the long standing wisdom of Swedish immigrants in North Dakota? FYI, BND gives as low as 1% loans to their farmers. North Dakota is the polar opposite of California right now, and the state should be proud of itself. What they did when they made that state bank -- they forced out the predominiant out-of-state bankers who were just there to feed off of them, and instead are reaping a great harvest, pun intended.

Shoe - you and I would definitely get along chatting about religion and New Testament beliefs while enjoying root beer floats at an A&W stand! I don't look down on alcohol though, as even the Bible says to give drink to those that are down/depressed. However, I've never felt that bad. In addition, Solomon said to stay away from drunkeness if you are to make decisions of a king. That logic especially applies to military decisions, which is primarily why I don't drink alcohol. Have you looked at the Constitution Party's platform? You may find their points in line with your beliefs. At minimum, check out what the last candidate Chuck Baldwin is doing with the church he leads in Pensacola - definitely looks like a man bearing fruit.

07-20-2009, 06:30 PM
Kim - me too on the Norwegian heritage - great-grandparents emigrated from there, we still keep in touch with some family, and I myself have been there twice. I wonder how much of how the Norwegians treated the Jews was due to their being occupied by the Nazis and feeling they had to do what the Nazis wanted or be killed themselves (my relatives were essentially prisoners in their own home, and ceased to have any say in what went on while the Nazis were there). Then again, I might have rather been killed myself than do someone's evil bidding, if they asked me to do something egregious...

BM - back to God...I suppose I think It's self-revealing, but of course, one has to be receptive and discerning to notice It's there. I don't follow the Bible; I'm not Christian nor Jewish. I think, as a human construct, it's too small a slice of a universe that is so much larger than we are. I just cannot believe that God would come to us in our image when there is so much more beyond us (maybe even other "people"). Then again, I'll give Judeo-Christians the argument that God may have come to humanity in its own image because that's the only way It "thought" we'd understand (thought being too human a concept as well, but I can't think of a better word at the moment).

I remember the day back in Catholic school when they tried to tell me animals have no souls (my family wasn't Catholic, BTW, just trying to find a school that I'd fit into, not realizing it doesn't exist :p). I wanted to respond, "Bulls**t!" so bad I could taste it. Sorry, to me, everything has a soul - my cat, my pen, the distant planets we haven't even found yet, and ALL the space in between.

Cary C-Troll
07-20-2009, 10:12 PM
- There is so much prophecy of the coming Messiah in the Old Testament- throughout- written hundreds of years before Christ.

-I believe the Bible is the complete, infallible truth and Word of God- given to us through Divine inspiration. I believe it is the Living Word because of the power in it (once 'it' manifests itself, it is truly undeniable). It is a book of love and it is a book that offends- yes, it cuts indeed. It forces recognition of human nature and design, not candy-coated. It takes away the comfort of gray and leaves us with black or white.

I believe we are designed (yes, created) for God's purposes- to search Him out. His desire is for ALL to come to Him- so that we do not destroy ourselves. But we go so far in all other directions, missing the mark, missing the blessings (I do this everyday), looking everywhere else and trying anything but- denying ourselves of Him, denying Him.

No one is perfect, not Christians, not non-Christians. That's not at all what Christianity is about. I will continue falling on my face in great mistakes for the rest of my life, no matter how hard or how little I try. But I know that I have my Creator on my side and always willing to step in & lead if I ask. I have to ask each day, as often as.

The devil would have us think differently...helps divide us and stir up hate. He is a deceiver. Hopelessness, hatred, confusion- it's all in that web.

And with that I have to say that I do not hate anyone b/c Christ commanded us to love everyone. In my natural-sinful condition, I could hate the person that nearly ran me off the road w/ my toddler in tow. But Christ puts me in check b/c I don't have the power alone to keep myself in check.

I am so pleased to see so many different ppl here that have posted throughout this board expressions of love and peace- that is the message of Christ. That message gets really, really lost when we (Christian or not) start changing it and twisting it for our own ungood and ill-gain. Christ would denounce all the evils done in His name. The devil wouldn't want any of us to discern the difference.

Satan has studied us all since the beginning (yes, the Genesis beginning) and he knows what makes us tick and how to trip us up to keep us divided, defeated, depressed, all that stuff. I've been an easy target for his spiritual warfare. But because I have experienced grace- I have a Defender, a Protector, a true Father. I have peace.

07-21-2009, 10:18 AM
BM- Thank you, something to think about. I didn't know that about ND.

Carrie--Think I'd like to read further on that--the Norwegian/Nazi history.
Hey, you're a fairly new Norwegian-American! That's cool! I don't know any relatives over there, yet--my father's family emigrated around the time of the Thirty Years War. Our family name is the merchant long ship. I can never tell from pictures if it's a horse or dragon head on the bow--hope to see a recreated ship in a museum sometime. My mom's Czech/English and old school Roman Catholic--so I know what you mean--the idea of soul-less animals is just plain wacky and wrong to me, too.

BM, Cary & Shoeman--It's wonderful you're so passionate, yet tolerant, in your beliefs. It took me a very long time to find faith, so I really appreciate people who totally know where they stand, what they are about.

Except for this guy (quoted from yesterday's paper, a big article about Shiism in America): "Christanity is an upgrade from Judaism, Islam is an upgrade from Christianity."

What do you guys think about that?


The Queen
07-21-2009, 04:46 PM
I'm with Cary and BM, so elequently stated, and I wish I had more time to write what I really thought, but I may do that later.

The gears are spinning.

Edited: I had the wrong Cary, so many east coast Carrie's! and I care about all of them!

07-21-2009, 05:08 PM
Ugh, what a comment (that that guy made). It proves my point that we'd all be better off to realize that there are many paths to God because there are many different people searching, each trying understand the same concept, but it a way that makes sense to that individual. I think it's a far more important thing that people are asking questions, than the method of how they go about it. This seems to get lost so much in religion, though. I love to speak about what I believe, yet realize that it isn't going to be the way most people (or anyone else) understands God, and that's fine. I just wish that I'd be afforded the same courtesy. I do have to applaud the number of Christians here who haven't tried to tell me that, because I don't see God in the same way they do, that I'm going to hell or can't know It. I have too many experiences that ARE like that (including people I'm having to wait on at work!), and see it as bullying and aggression, which I have no tolerance for in my life. I'm getting a small taste of what natives of our countries' colonies must have been put through (a very small taste, admittedly).

I've been very fortunate to have had diverse religious exposure; my family is Protestant Christian, I went to Catholic elementary school for three years, went to a majority Jewish high school, with a smattering of Muslims and Christians thrown in, and ended up a...whatever I am :p It reminds me of a comment Cy made on the Nepal trek while spinning the prayer wheels where he said that if he practiced some of all religions, he'd be sure to be doing the right thing. Maybe we all ought to aim for that!

That brings me to something I've noticed; that even though the Fixx have been very questioning of Christianity or religious dogma in general (think Digging Up The Rock, Sense The Adventure, and Walkabout for example), they have a fair number of Christian, sometimes devout, fans. So, either the fans are questioning of their own religious experience, while not necessarily abandoning or changing it (which I think is a good thing), or they don't realize the band is so openly questioning it. I don't think it's an accident, though, that even the devoutly religious among us are more tolerant than most devoutly religious people in society (some of whom I fear have been brainwashed). So once again, yay Fixx and its fans!

07-22-2009, 09:39 AM
you forgot "Everyone believes in Something"

I believe i'll have another beer.... later tonight-

; )

♦ D3

07-22-2009, 02:22 PM
Kim---Your gracious remarks reach me in a really good way. You have been so good to me since I've been on this forum, and you can be sure I have nothing but pure love for you, Ira and the pets.

BM---I really appreciate your insights on spiritual matters. I recall reading your thread on Martin Luther and the pope, that was an incredible piece of scholarship. I do pray for your safe return from Iraq, and wish there was some way I could treat you to an A&W somehow, somewhere.

All the best to everybody....


Cary C-Troll
07-24-2009, 10:37 PM

wondering if anyone else has seen this?

Decided to watch it again this evening...knowing it will start those wheels spinning in my head. I hope everyone sees it at some point. Alot of food for thought. You can watch it on the web.

The segment about the owners of The Jewish Mother is extremely disturbing. Who are the terrorists now? Watch it, you'll see.

There is a segment from a juror on the IRS v. W. Harrell. If you ever have the opportunity to serve on a jury- please engage and speak up. It is our civil responsibility. It's amazing how one voice in a room can influence a group.

I know I'm all over the place with this, but watching this dvd again made me think of how many people ask me about our Constitution (for our church). They're asking me instead of reading for themselves. I gladly tell them, hand them a copy and show them where to find the answer to their specific questions. I want them to read it for themselves. If you watch this video, you'll understand why that is so important. It is so important.

07-25-2009, 08:28 PM
Thanks Cary, for bringing that topic up.

Back in the Midwest, my small biz was randomly selected for the dreaded "A" word. It was very stressful, time-consuming, plus expensive as had to pay my accountant for that extra work...and in the end...they owed ME $ 3 bucks! Good freakin' grief!

That's really how it is--harrassing the small fry and turning a blind eye to the big fish! No wonder nothing ever gets done--it's a plot to look away.

That said, support your local small businesses:tup:

I've served on 2 juries.

One where a guy staked out a quickie mart for 7 hours, w/ a gun btwn his butt cheeks and a rifle down the side of his pant leg. It was a trial for his driver. The little old ladies on the jury took pity on him, they finally wore me down after 13 hours of deliberating-- I was a youngster back then and wanted to go home. Oh, they passed the butt gun around to us...YUCK!

Now, you tell me... how could a friend/driver NOT know his friend had 2 guns like that, sitting for 7 hours in a car casing a place??? Get real.

Surely, he'd have been like "Man, this butt gun is chafing me" or "My leg is cramping from keeping it in this position, due to the GUN DOWN MY LEG" or "Don't get me a super slurpee--or I'll have to pee and my guns'll fall out"!!!

The other was an arson case. This little tiny guy had set several fires to get away from his evil witch of a wife. She really WAS evil! She took the stand and totally emasculated him! We all felt sorry for him, and he was guilty...he even said so! I don't know why they even made it a jury trial.

After the sentencing, he came over looking very relieved and shook all our hands and was very profusely "thank you, thank you". I'm sure if he'd been let off, she'd have beaten him up when they got home. Just glad no one got hurt in those fires. It sure was an odd case!


Cary C-Troll
07-26-2009, 07:43 AM
Hi Kim,

You're exactly correct. The IRS will go after smaller business and anyone else they deem will put up less of a fight b/c of the legal expenses we wouldn't be able to afford for defense. Hmmm...sounds a little predatorial, doesn't it?

There is no statute, no law for us to pay income taxes. It is unconstitutional. Since I will make this a tangent, I'll just drop it here and go on to the next point-

Do watch that video, but know that the segment on The Jewish Mother will boil your blood. esp. since you're business has been picked for audit.

Lastly, I sincerely mean what I said about serving on a jury. I was 26 when I served my first criminal case. Hardly someone to take seriously at first sight. The jury was leaning toward finding a man innocent of assaulting a police officer. He was guilty and the DA presented a clear case. Once we were to deliberate, the biggest mouth on the jury didn't want to find the defendent guilty because of race. No one else in the room would discuss the facts of the case, they were intimidated. So, I just started thinking out loud and listing questions for that juror until she said it herself...he was guilty. (We couldn't even figure out how this case ever made it to trial, it was so obvious).

Once you watch America Freedom to Fascism, drop me a word.

07-26-2009, 04:55 PM
Hi Cary,

I'd watched it; it was very interesting. Alot to digest there.

I used to have a local customer who insisted on not paying sales tax.
They were very vocal, unpleasant and quite belligerant about it.

Well, as a small biz owner, you still have to ante up to "the man".
For that individual to skate out of it and penalise me, wasn't gonna fly!

So, basically built the tax back into their materials cost on those invoices, plus a PIA (pain in the ***) charge. Then, I'd re-print the invoice as it originally should've been after that obnox one left--for my records to be correct for any auditing. My version of the waiter spitting in the soup.

This same client used to boast their kids went through "the system" on other folks' tax dollars, but they weren't about to fund other people's kids now that their kids were out of school! That's just not right, IMO.

They also strutted around with their guns at the annual small town 4th of July celebration--because it was their right to bear arms.

Yeah, I'm sure a bunch of families picnicking at the park and playing sparklers w/ their little kids and Grandma are a real threat.


Cary C-Troll
07-26-2009, 08:20 PM
Hi Kim,
Sounds like this guy was so over-the-top extremist that he didn't do his own homework on which taxes are legal and which are unconstitutional.

Sales tax is perfectly legal. It is income tax that was never made legal- not ratified by the states in the 16th amendment as the IRS would have us all believe. The nazi you were unfortunately dealing with doesn't know the difference.

Somewhere in these threads is a note posted by our Precious Stone that very interestingly brings up the topic of the 2nd amendment, the right to bear arms. Again, the nazi you were dealing with wouldn't know the wisdom behind our forefathers in including that in the US Constitution. Apparently, he gets off being an obnoxious and intimidating menace...which gives a good argument to strong gun control.

I believe the 2nd amendment is in place to give the people, the citizens a means to defend themselves in a tyrannical police state. Our forefathers recognized the abuse of power that a government could and would take if left unchecked. And look how far we've come.

If you can find it here, read what Precious posted- I think that coupled with America Freedom to Fascism is a testimony to the wisdom of the great men that penned our Constitution.

07-26-2009, 09:13 PM
Yeah, that client was a real crayz-o.

Hey Cary, thanks, will look for that post.

Personally, I don't like guns but understand why the 2nd ammendment.


Cary C-Troll
07-26-2009, 09:36 PM
Found This Interesting- is the name of the thread I mentioned by Precious in Sign of Fire. (About the 2nd Amendment) And it is indeed interesting.

Not too far down the list.

BTW, I do appreciate everyone for speaking up in Sign of Fire. Even if I don't stand for all the same things as others, I applaud what each of you is saying. You are thinkers- it's refreshing. What a great way to pass time until the next 'show discussion' thread.-

Robert M
07-27-2009, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Cary C-Troll
I believe the 2nd amendment is in place to give the people, the citizens a means to defend themselves in a tyrannical police state. Our forefathers recognized the abuse of power that a government could and would take if left unchecked. And look how far we've come.

I find this a very interesting point - I had a long discussion with a couple of US tourists the other week and a large chunk of the conversation was about this exact situation.

As a UK citizen, bombarded with media talk about the US "gun culture" etc. etc. it's refreshing to hear a genuine personal point of view, not built on aggression, but re-affirming principles of individuality & self-determination. It brought home to me that:

a) I know next to nothing about how Americans see themselves (which matters a lot in the grand scheme of things) and

b) There's a certain strength in straightforward principles & truth that us cynical Europeans have (in my view, at least) lost touch with.


Beached Male
07-27-2009, 07:34 PM
Multiple responses...
Cary- thanks for the "Freedom to Fascism" link. I have read Griffin's "The Creature from Jekyll Island" along with Quigley's book summary, both of which come up in the movie, and honestly I hadn't ever heard of this film, although much of the information on the central banks, history, etc. I already knew. The tax argument was newish to me, hadn't heard some of those references before, but good to know and it is an important film. I had to watch it over 4 sessions in the room here - hard to get enough time in one block!

Robert M - I think the most confused aspect of our histories between the U.S. and mother England is regarding the insidious way bankers have tried to keep things connected between the two. There may be some elitists who in their heart believe they're doing good for all of us and good for the world in trying to rejoin us as if we're formerly separated twins, but frankly it's as unhealthy as my analogy - the U.S. and U.K. must be separate sovereign nations. "Collectivists" tend to believe that the world will be better off if we all come together and sing round the campfire. The problem with nations flat-lining to each others' mores and values is that frankly - man is evil and sinful and man will corrupt a collective system, but men who separate themselves have the means to resolve and judge separately what each values. If one nation values production to the point of being a sweat-shop society - well all those who really like that form of life can go join them. For me, I want to preserve "old America" and the Constitution. Freedoms are eroding, and frankly some nations have more freedom than the U.S., but most Americans don't know this because they're isolated in the growing police state and don't get outside the U.S. to see what others may be enjoying.

Bringing religion into the discussion - in the Phillipines one can proselytize at high schools, even on their school grounds, and school officials are grateful for Christians doing this work because the children become much more disciplined and conscious of right and wrong after becoming Christians. The ACLU would fire up stakes to burn people for the same thing in America, much less the government physically removing you from a public school. I could go on and on about basic everyday freedoms also - you can't even squat and shat on the ground in a federal forest because of "rules." No one's arresting the wolves yet for the same thing, fortunately.

Robert M
07-28-2009, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Beached Male
"Collectivists" tend to believe that the world will be better off if we all come together and sing round the campfire. The problem with nations flat-lining to each others' mores and values is that frankly - man is evil and sinful and man will corrupt a collective system, but men who separate themselves have the means to resolve and judge separately what each values.

Absolutely spot on - I couldn't agree more. :cheers:

My view is that "peoples" are like magnets - the more globalisation/global politics tries to shoehorn every culture/tribe into one big box, the more they resist and are forced apart.

If this is by reasoned choice then it can be a positive force for freedom. The downside, however, is the rise of ignorant racism and extreme right-wing politics (which is happening across Europe).

07-28-2009, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Beached Male
Bringing religion into the discussion - in the Phillipines one can proselytize at high schools...

People of all faiths, or just Christians? That's the important question to me...

Beached Male
07-28-2009, 05:52 PM
Okay, I have to ask - why is that important?

07-28-2009, 06:01 PM
Because I don't think governments are the right institutions to be making religious decisions, especially for young people, so if they're going to allow one, they should allow all, so the kids, not the government, can make an informed decision about which one, if any, shows them the path to God.

Beached Male
07-30-2009, 06:07 PM
Collectivism defined, described and much more in this 5 part video series. G. Edward Griffin just put this in YouTube for the world to see. This is well worth the time to watch, especially if you don't already know about Collectivism and how it affects our future.

Highly recommend this if you want to hear a new perspective on:
The U.N.
Council on Foreign Relations (CFR)
International Monetary Fund (IMF)
The World Bank

Cary C-Troll
07-30-2009, 08:18 PM
So glad Griffin did this video, and that it is on YT. Knowing the truth is half the battle. As he explains in this series, the 'Global Elite' are counting on us to be ignorant of the real agenda of these organizations. Once we realize the truth, they're counting on us to be apathetic about it.

I highly recommend everyone watch this series.

Mike Dillard
08-06-2009, 07:24 PM
Regardless of your political affliations, we'll all get better results from our elected officials if we can get PUBLICALLY FINANCED ELECTIONS! Let them start listening to us, instead of just to giant banks and corporations.


08-11-2009, 04:50 PM
As I mentioned in another thread, I'm joining a church soon. It's a Presbyterian church, which is a part of my family heritage. Presbyterians believe in predestination, which on the surface, seems like belief in fate, harsh even. Actually, it's simply a recognition of the sovereignty of God. It is God who judges, not the Christian, leaving us free only to love. That's my interpretation of it, anyway.

The Queen
08-11-2009, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by dejapete
As I mentioned in another thread, I'm joining a church soon. It's a Presbyterian church, which is a part of my family heritage. Presbyterians believe in predestination, which on the surface, seems like belief in fate, harsh even. Actually, it's simply a recognition of the sovereignty of God. It is God who judges, not the Christian, leaving us free only to love. That's my interpretation of it, anyway.

Great to hear! from another Presbyterian, Reformed.
I wish more people would understand that it's all about the sovereignty of God and His grace.

Cary C-Troll
08-11-2009, 05:41 PM
It's about His grace extended to us. Not something we earn by deed or other human effort.

Romans 8:28-30

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
That's pretty powerful and clear.

08-12-2009, 08:08 AM
Since December I have been attending a progressive Presbyterian Church. I am loving and trying to live the messages that I am learning . The Pastor is very liberal in his views and leaves us with thoughts to ponder at each service. I am enjoying my journey:love: :angel:

Beached Male
08-25-2009, 12:34 PM
This website will challenge what you consider the "norms" in your faith and in science. Both "evolutionists" and Christians are surprised at concepts where their going assumptions are challenged by both reason and physical evidence. If you choose to read some of the articles here, beware, you may not ever have the same perspective on Creation, Evolution, and what man "was" ever again...
Navigating the pages can be problematic - use the "next" link at the bottom of each page, but unfortunately it doesn't list which page you're on as you go through each section.


Cary C-Troll
08-28-2009, 10:01 PM

Another scare tactic by the government to get us to surrender more rights to them. Oh, help us indeed. Are we to be convinced that we need Big Brother to watch over and control everything? The internet? Healthcare? One thing after another until we're in a new-wave Nazi state.

Wow, kind of dramatic, I know. ;)

Beached Male
08-29-2009, 06:00 AM
Senator Rockefeller is the one behind that cyber-security bill, so it's no wonder. He's not just supporting the "elite," he is part of the elite crowd. I wouldn't trust anything coming out of his office. That guy conveniently has big friends in both Dem and Repub parties, which is no surprise. An example of how someone like him acts - he helps push for the Iraq invasion and later goes against it all. A very easy way to treat the whole thing, pull the "I didn't know" routine. Here, read the bio for yourself. Do you think he holds America's best interests in mind when he votes?

08-29-2009, 10:37 PM
Our local congressman came and gave a Healthcare Reform presentation today.

There were alot of folks in the crowd bringing up the Constitution and how healthcare is not addressed in it.

I didn't get a chance to speak, but I wanted to say remember your history.

When the Founding Fathers wrote that, the life expectancy was not very long for the average person...lucky to reach 30 or 40 if survived childbirth, childhood, the toll of everyday hard laboring or major nasty diseases.

If we stayed with the Constitution exactly, our militia would not include an Airforce or NASA. There are no mentions of those; it'd be just Navy, Cavalry and Infantry, folks.

We wouldn't have the CDC, OSHA, NOAA, Social Security, Medicaid or Veteran's healthcare, Hoover Dam, Public Schools, EOE, the Highway System and other such modern conveniences (re: Veteran's healthcare, the Constitution allows for an operating "standing" militia, not aftercare or the disabled).

No bailing out the automobile industry either--no horseless carriages mentioned in there.

As far as guns, I'm sure they were thinking of muskets, not automatics.

What I'm saying is...times change, societies change and allowances must be made for that...ammendments.

Just my 2p,


Cary C-Troll
08-30-2009, 10:23 AM

It’s the fundamental principles behind the Constitution that are key. Americans don’t believe that our government would take advantage, take absolute control and power. While the original Constitution was drafted in a different world over 200 years ago, it was done so with careful consideration of man’s nature to abuse power. It is completely relevant today.

Look at the Declaration of Independence. Those principles are timeless. Yes, amendments are needed to keep up with change and technology. Those amendments should be considerate of progress and freedom, not constricting and binding us because we’re giving up individual and states’ rights to federal government organizations that are ultimately controlled by the wealthy elite (these people do not have your best interests in mind).

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That is ‘life’- not destruction of it (really think about that), ‘liberty’- not government control stifling and eliminating our choices little-by-little, and ‘the pursuit of happiness’- your dreams and mine, whatever they may be- not pigeon holed by someone in charge (our government), controlling and bending the playing field to a socialist nightmare where we all only advance to pre-set limitations and parameters.

None of you want me making key decisions for you and your family. I don’t know you and your individual circumstances. You have no basis of trusting me to take care of you and yours. You don’t know or understand what motivates me. So, why in the world would any of us trust the federal government with that kind of control and power? And our government absolutely wants that power. Politicians are bought and paid for by the elite. Politicians will cave to the dollar- and out the door go your best interests.

We do need regulations for improvements and safety- for the very same reason we would not give total control to our government: Anything left unchecked will eventually lead to abuse of power and be taken advantage of by people given to greed. So, anytime these bills, regulations and policies are being drafted ‘for our benefit’, they need to be CAREFULLY considered for loopholes that lead to loss of freedoms and exploitation. And, especially in this economy, considered for how financially viable they are and- for- WHOM.

Liberal politicians and their charmed constituents rally for socialistic policies and plans. And we believe they really want to take care of all Americans? Have we not learned anything from the condition of veteran hospitals? Tricare? ACORN? Who benefits from these? Government programs = more money for the wealthy elite. Who else benefits? Usually, those unwilling to work, illegal immigrants, anyone that will not contribute to paying the bills that you and I pay. Who’s left paying the price? Hard working Americans, our military and their families. Many Americans don’t believe that there are people in this world that just sit on their asses waiting for a handout. They come in two forms- the wealthy elite and the poor opportunists. When we all see these people operate on greed, we’ll stop believing in the socialistic dream and recognize it for the nightmare it really is. And I was born and raised ‘lower class’. So, I’m not looking down my elite nose at anyone. This is the reality that they don’t see in Kennebunkport and the Hamptons. They have no idea.

Liberal politicians- their platform speeches are no different than those of Miss Universe and Miss USA. We want to hear it and believe in it, but they have no solid plan or successes on which to stand. In a way it does all come down to this collectivism- mentality that somehow we’re all going to suddenly get along and agree on key policies and principles, have a Coke and a smile and give peace a chance. We can’t even get along with our friends, families and neighbors long enough to make it through a backyard BBQ or Thanksgiving dinner.

My point: This is why freedom as defined in the Constitution is so important. As it was written, I decide and you decide…the government doesn’t decide for us.

Beached Male
08-30-2009, 02:19 PM
This one has potential to be my most controversial post to date...

Let me lead off by saying this - I abhor and really hate what the Germans did in World War II to not just the Jewish people, but in what their strategy was in total. I'm not condoning what they did in my analogies, but we must view history with multiple perspectives to see the truth.

When we do look at history, we must look at the complete history, the preparatory events, the events, and the aftermath. What do we tend to look at? Well, often the aftermath only if we have no video footage or photographs of the time. The stories are just that - stories, that are subjective and often embellished. (In War, he who wins writes the history) For some events, especially World War II, we tend to only look at the events from our Western/U.S. perspective and the aftermath from an overly glorified and "big fish" perspective.

Who learned in school why the Nazis came to power in 1930s Germany? Did anyone actually learn about the starving Germans of the 1920s, the oppression, the poverty, the absolute gutter they were in as a nation? So how then do the Nazis come to power? Because of the PROMISES made, that's how. All those promises. Hitler won an election of the people (does that mean he headed up a Democracy?). The people of Germany CHOSE Hitler, he did not seize power. Along with his banter about racial superiority and other silliness (that they as a people took seriously), Hitler later would promise the German people that in conquering to the East (Russia), Germans could return to their historic roots in Russia to farm and own land there! Hitler's vision was Utopian for his people, not destructive. It's just that his "Utopia" was especially destructive to everyone outside Germany. However, with time his Utopian vision consumed Germany, and the German people were even worse off for having pursued Hitler's dream. Well, maybe we need to also go a bit further back than the elections in Germany to see why of all parties the Nazis emerged from that mess, look at how Nazis were funded at a time when Germany was extremely poor - how did Hitler rise to power? How did that propaganda machine take a man that only won roughly 33,000 votes in a prior election to winning the next election with a majority vote?

Central Bankers, that's how. The head of the Central Bank of England met with the head of the Central Bank of Germany, and a deal was struck. Germany was given funds for one specific mission - eradicate Communism from Europe. Are you aware of this transaction? Schools don't teach this. However, it is historic fact, and surpressed. Maybe Chamberlain's speech and the initial "relationship" between Germany and Britain comes into context. The Germans were infused with capitol to rearm and fight a war by bankers, the elite. Even the Russians were ignorant of the ploy. Russia initially was allied with Germany also, and let the German military train on Russian soil since Germany had restrictions from the past WWI agreements. When most people hear for the first time that the Central Bank in England helped fund the German Nazis, they usually scoff as if it is conspiracy theory, but it is conspiracy fact. More on Central Banks later.

Back to the "Promises" made by Hitler - it was a very tribal appeal that was rooted in centuries of continental infighting in Europe (go back thousands of years - the German people emerged over time as the supreme Tribe of Europe). No different, Hitler came out and told the tribe they were physically and mentally superior to everyone else. They all got in line and the tribe went to war, and the people and factories gladly followed suit.

I see no difference in current political undertones not just in the U.S., but around the world. People in search of a better life will let envy and covetousness influence their mental decisions, but that's just a mental "sin." People who are literally starving and scraping from the gutter will go further, they will come together and fuse themselves in deadly war machines, like any other starving tribe would. That's my concern - the world has more and more poverty and hunger, but in places where plenty of war machinery is either available or easily made. Having said this, one counter point - the machete is the weapon that killed more people in the 20th Century than any other single weapon, so gearing up for war in the world only takes a small amount of steel.

Starving people, hurting people (medical care), dependant people (legal drugs) are susceptible to Promises. We should not be blinded by those Promises being made day in day out. Germany's people wanted to change their miserable existence, and had it not been for U.S. efforts after the war, those still alive in Germany would have been worse off than the starving Germans of the 1920s. Some may scoff at analogies I am making here, that the U.S. has similarities to Germany, but here's one fact to consider:

The U.S. has also received a large sum of money from Central Bankers - to eradicate "Terrorism" from the world. Do you see the parallels? Regardless the moral and platform differences in the Nazi regime and the growing Big Government of the U.S., one similarity remains and is disturbing, both nations have been fed funds from Central Banks to fight wars that really do not hold value to their people.

It's a complicated process to explain how these Central Bankers work and how they make money, but let me explain a couple of scenarios, and these are not the only possibilities - many hundreds could play out. Central Bankers earn money from national debt. It's steady income, and while the percentages they earn aren't high compared to other ventures, you simply cannot "invest" or wager really BIG money more than you can with entire nations' debt accounts. Think about it - who is making more money right now on interest, a credit card issuer with all the defaults due to job losses, and largess bureacracy necessary to service all those customers, or a Central Banker who maintains debt with single nations in very large amounts? Who is less likely to default on their loans? Nations, of course, and since the same Central Bankers get to control how much cash is printed and produced electronically, the game is played by the Dealer, get it? Would you trust a card Dealer who gets to see cards to play Poker with you? Of course not, but that's how Central Bankers are, they're both in the know and in the game. They also are in the know for who gets what from all the government debt, in many cases. This is another major way Central Bankers make money on their own personal and bank assets - they invest in things that they perceive (know) will get the government's winning bid or decision. Defense contractors, agricultural projects, environmental projects and initiatives, drug decisions and (forced) innoculations -- don't think of this as "inside information" either. Laws aren't designed to take down these elite of the elite. The more the government spends, the more money the Central Bankers make in two ways:
1. The national debt total increases, giving the Central Bank a larger gain on the interest on the debt.
2. The government spending goes to companies that the Central Bank (and/or its members) know will get the funds, and they're (often) prior invested within.

Why should we fear what the elite want for the world? Many people on earth today (if not most) have a miserable existence. Percentage wise of the billions on earth, most people live far below a global poverty line. U.S. citizens are quickly joining those ranks, although our perspective is different for now, it could get much worse in the coming years. It seems like we don't mind sliding further into debt, further into a trap, as long as the Promises keep coming. Again, why to fear what the elite want for the world? Because it will only make that miserable existence even worse. The fact is, miserable people are at least alive. Under an elitist system, they will be dead. Some people certainly will be made happy - at the expense of the miserable (and dead). Elites have also proven over and over that they desire culling the world of "excess" and our wars have proven that. I will close with this - the reason the very first Central Bank (England) formed, was to fund a war.

08-31-2009, 09:15 PM
Hey Cary,

I understand what you mean. I just get very tired of people at these public meetings only pulling out the Right to bear arms part of the Constitution. I doubt most of them have actually read or thought past that one line item.
That and the ones who don't get that Medicaid IS a federal program.

And I (controversially, I'm sure) see nothing wrong with socialised medicine.
It's better than nothing at all and losing your house due to a medical crisis.
Bet that Dr is enjoying his weekly Wed half day off golfing, the lawyer out on his fancy boat and the insurance guy tropical vacationing.

BM--Parallels of "Insurance Companies" to "Central Bankers", when applied to the current healthcare industry.

That's why there'll never be real health reform here...too many lobbyists with too much $$ to be made from the insurance, medical and law professions.

And you're right, governments thrive on the blind eyes of the masses.

That's why I fully believe our system has been actively promoting mediocrity (or less) in education, to keep the general population under control.

World history? What's that?

Americans get long, drawn-out, boring schooling on battle tactics of the Revolutionary & Civil Wars, then the teachers try to cram the rest of an America-centric history into that last 6 weeks of class.

Hey, let's cut the advanced learning classes, arts programs and ban evolution talk! We can't have artists, geniuses, free-thinkers, other faiths, scientists and teachers around...they're the first ones to get rid of, to keep people from questioning things (ala most any war)!

Alot of this comes under the guise of "we can't have anybody's feelings getting hurt in school, so we don't want to encourage excellence because not everyone's capable."


The Queen
09-06-2009, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Beached Male
This website will challenge what you consider the "norms" in your faith and in science. Both "evolutionists" and Christians are surprised at concepts where their going assumptions are challenged by both reason and physical evidence. If you choose to read some of the articles here, beware, you may not ever have the same perspective on Creation, Evolution, and what man "was" ever again...
Navigating the pages can be problematic - use the "next" link at the bottom of each page, but unfortunately it doesn't list which page you're on as you go through each section.


Interesting website, and I have always been fascinated with the Flood, which all cultures on the planet tell stories of.

Beached Male
09-07-2009, 05:18 PM
Of course all cultures have a flood story - they all would have branched from the Noah family line, and verbal history would have been the norm after the flood. Let's face it, even grandkids forget their grandparents' birthdays these days. How much more is forgotten with time beyond Noah? Just something to think about...
I enjoy reading about the possibilities of how advanced man could have been before the flood. It is...staggering to think about, especially in the context of Giza pyramids and such.

Oh, if we all need a comedy break with decent musical accompaniment, try this one on:

Cary C-Troll
09-15-2009, 04:34 PM

If I botched the link search Tim Hawkins "Government Can" on YouTube. Good for a giggle.

Cary C-Troll
09-17-2009, 03:44 PM
For Constitution Day, September 17th

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s7yB_v7KNI (http://)

This is from 2006. Can't get the link to work. Anyway, Glen Beck had a segment today- looking for that, too.

Robert M
11-06-2009, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by msmith1
I fully believe our system has been actively promoting mediocrity (or less) in education, to keep the general population under control.

Absolutely 100% correct. Very well said.

Cary C-Troll
04-07-2010, 07:38 AM
Does this scare anyone else or even remotely disturb that sense of false security?

http://freedomwatchonfox.com/ (http://freedomwatchonfox.com)

if i botched the link, it's an interview with Lew Rockwell from Freedom Watch/ Judge Napolitano.

The second interview is with Ron Paul. Think you are in favor of our imperialistic government?

The third interview is with Gerald Celente- the current administration wants us to believe we're coming out of this economic disaster- it's another bubble, another lie.

Last with Tom Woods. Our government doesn't recognize limits of power. Exploiting the American people, undermining the Constitution, and we think this is what we want.